"Freedom of speech and debates; or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament"
The fact that disgraced MP's and Lords are now trying to use the bills reference above to "proceedings" to prevent their expenses abuses being punishable in a court of law is damaging in the extreme to the bills initial intentions.
The real intention of course was to allow MP's elected to Parliament the ability to speak freely without fear of the law and or of the influence of any outside bodies.
In fact the bill was central to the Committee of Privilege’s judgement in the case of WJ Brown in 1947, when it declared that "it is inconsistent with the dignity of the house, with the duty of a Member to his constituents, and with the maintenance of the privilege of freedom of speech, for any member of this House to enter into a contractual agreement with an outside body, controlling or limiting the Member’s complete independence and freedom of action in Parliament or stipulating that he shall act in any way as the representative of such outside body in regard to any matters to be transacted in Parliament; the duty of a Member being to his constituents and to the country as a whole, rather than any section thereof.""The duty of a member being to his constituents and to the country as a whole, rather than any section thereof"
The line above is worthy of repeat because it's purity and its intended outcome when set against our modern day political system has been corrupted totally, and the view expressed in the 1947 ruling would of course preclude national political parties and their whips from imposing national policy on individual members above the interests of their constituents or the country as a whole.
You see I have beliefs, more than policies, those beliefs have been formed and rounded over many years of local and national representation of the people have led me to the position I am now in of Independence from or loyalty to any national party or imposed point of view. They also guided my intentions in setting up Northampton Independent Voice as a collective rather than a Political Party, I don't want to replicate the system we suffer under, I want to change it!!
Until an election is called I am merely a prospective parliamentary candidate, but throughout the election I will use this blog to both update readers as to how the campaign progresses and also to discuss openly with friends and foes my beliefs and my values.
So where do you want to start? on what subject? ask away, I will be happy to discuss the difficult issues as much as the easy ones, and I will be as blunt and upfront as ever in any responses to points raised. I would however ask as a matter of decency for people to identify themselves, even if they feel only able to as a pseudyonm, anything has to better than "Anonymous"
Martin Bell when in Northampton recently wished me well for the campaign and told an audience at the Central Library that "We need more Independent and Independently minded MP's like Tony Clarke elected to parliament to bring some honesty back and to help to really change and reform our Parliament"
I of course agreed with him!! but look at what he said again, he and I don't just want Independent MP's elected, we also want more Independently minded MP's elected across the Parties who are prepared to stand up for what THEY believe in and stand up for their CONSTITUENCIES against if necessary their party machines enforced "policy" We need more members willing to use the 1689 Bill of Rights for the good of their electorate rather than as get out of jail free card! And we need more members to be aware of the Committee of Privileges ruling in 1947 if we are to enable them to represent their constituents in Parliament rather than weakly representing Parliament or their Party's view down the line to them as constituents who are supposed not to hold a view, and simply accept that they are just following Party Policy!!!!!!!!!
Hello Tony - Alan Marshall here from Duston. You may remember me from 1997 when I did some knocking / leafletting for you during the campaign. They were good days. Can't believe they were so long ago now.
ReplyDeleteWhereas I wish you well personally, my overall feeling is one of dissapointment to read of your independence.
I was always impressed with your committment to the movement and whatever the problems with some members and some officials that all movements have, we in Labour have and always will acheive more together than we do alone.
I have read some of the comments on the blog and although agree with you that 'Anon' should reveal himself/herself, when you take out their personal gripes there is some merit in their points.
My main beef with you, is that all the great 'radicals' and 'reformers' in history, have been men and women who have been part of a wider movement. Independence on its own is not a cause. I take your points on truth and honesty but we still have some very decent and upright MPs from all sides that are, well decent and honest.
Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and others were all members of political movements / party's through good times and bad.
They all followed, championed and changed key social issues and policies of their time (civil rights legislation, freedom of India, end of apartheid)
I will be Labour until I die - I passionately believe the strength of the movement is that it is bigger than any one person and was here before us and will be long after us.
If you are to be successful, you need bigger ideas, ideology, beliefs or policies than independence, truth and honesty. They are the bare bones of what so many people, across the political divide believe. We want inspiring to greater things.
Someone who can provide that (sorry byt Martin Bell did not even come close) I believe holds the touch paper of real revolution.
Look forward to hearing from you.
AM
Good to hear that my views have some support - although I disagree with Mr Marshall that you can't exchange views properly unless you let people know who you are!
ReplyDeleteI don't want to get in the way of others exchanging 'stripes' for what they have done for Labour and what they haven't - it is though interesting looking through the blog how many holes there are in the independent position Tony Clarke is taking.
He champions the late great Michael Foot after his sad death (Michael by the way would never had left the party) and then quotes him regarding the House of Lords - Michael states he would never enter the House of Lords as how could he be part of something he wanted to abolish.
Sounds a bit familiar to previous points raised on Borough and County and all that ....
Alan,
ReplyDeleteGood to hear from you, I remember you with both affection and gratitude.
I also appreciate your views, and I spent a lot of time inside the party fighting for the very Independence that I now have.
For me after all this time its very simple, why should a good constituency MP have to put their parliamentary career on the line or face deselection or lack of support simply for following what they and many such as them in the local party believe in?
After the 2001 election, how many of our then membership would have voted for war in Iraq?
How many would have supported a policy of lets try for a second UN resolution and/or a European buy in, but if we fail lets support the authorship of a dodgy dossier, inventing wmd's and agree a war pact with George Bush!
It was that lack of local internal democracy which has driven me away from the party and from the whole party system.
In Northampton South the Labour Party now has an abscent candidate who is destroying any loyalty left in the party and as such has left it to me as an Independent to take on the Tories on behalf of anyone who doesn't want a Tory MP returned.
Indeed it is the lack of truth, independence and honesty which has driven me out of the party!
So what is it to be? a vote for an uninterested abscent candidate who has destroyed the local party far more than I could have?
Or a real credible alternative to the Tory?
I do of course respect your right to vote as you will and understand your position, but the dye is now caste, and I hope you will understand my reasons for standing up for what I believe in, be it in or out of the Labour Party.
Anon, I respect Michaels memory far too much to get into a debate with you on his beliefs, and I admit he was a man of far more untainted principles than I will ever be.
But on the matter you make on holes in my position?
Identify them and as always, in person without hiding my identity, I will always answer them.
BTW what does it say on Clydes blog?
Tony
Tony - don't you feel the last comment on Clyde (is that really his name?)just about sums it all up?
ReplyDeleteFor most people I know in the town, who go to work everyday and come home tired to spend some time with the kids and watch Arsenal fall short yet again, its not about Clyde v Tony Clarke. It's about who is going to run our country for the next five years and that's Labour or the Tories.
Who knows if the voters will prove me wrong in a few weeks but I would imagine most of them don't give a fig about Clyde v Tony or whatever the Labour Party in Northampton South is up to (I used to live in Wales as a student - you should see the internal Labour struggles there! Whoever wanted to be a branch treasurer made the front page of the local newspaper!)
I know the anon stuff is annoying but don't you think your last blog with the Duston bloke sums it up too? "Your" parliamentary career? Well it was on hold anyway cos Labour (you) got beat by the Tories (Binless) in N'pton South. The measure of internal party democracy can not be whether they selected you or not the next time. When you stood against the party locally you forfitted your right to stand again for Labour.
If you had been selected for Labour to stand in Castle Ward at the local election, and then stood for selection for the N'pton South seat but if members had chosen someone else, would you have stayed within the party or became an independent?
In terms of Iraq - my recollection of history was that the invasion and vote in parliament was post 2001 but before the 2005 election? Therefore at the 2005 General Election the electorate of the UK had a choice to cast their votes accordingly.
A Tony Blair led Labour majority of 66(ish)was clear. If people, including party members (who had a choice to deselect pro-war MPs) wanted to register a vote against Iraq they didn't have to vote Labour.
Thanks Anon (another one!) for reasons as to why I left the party I refer you here:
ReplyDeletehttp://tonyclarkeindependent.blogspot.com/2009/02/why.html
On the comments you make
"It's about who is going to run our country for the next five years and that's Labour or the Tories."
you are right to a degree, although with a hung parliament I am sure the SNP. Plaid Cymru and the Unionists, let alone any Independents will have a big say, but my whole point is that we have got to stop voting along Party lines and in doing so ignoring the quality of the candidates on offer.
Northampton, as with any other town/city deserves parliamentary representation which is loyal to them, not a national party, I tried that from within and all it brought me was trouble.
I don't know Clyde? and my point was and is that it will never about Tony V Clyde, but he has let down an awful lot of local Labour party members and voters by his total lack of interest in the seat and his unwillingness to fight it.
My battle is against Brian Binley to try to give non Tory voters a credible alternative vote. Anyone thinking that the Labour Party offer that at the minute in Northampton South either isn't local or hasn;t been keeping up with affairs.
On Iraq, I disagree. Tony Blairs majority on the vote for war was won at a very heavy price, Labour MP's were forced through the lobby's under threat of losing position. losing their seat, or in some cases much worse. You forget I was in those lobbys and there were far more than 66 MP's who as much as said "I don't agree with this but I have to fight my conscience and vote for my career"
I hope this helps, I have no axe to grind with the Local Labour Party, I still have a lot of friends within, some not all frustrated at the lack of interest from their own candidate in the seat will be helping me with my campaign, but people at regional office should know now so that they can move on that I just don't buy the "vote splitting" lies any more. Two succesfull local elections in what were Labours safest seat have shown me and others that people want representation they can trust from people they can identify with, not party placed hacks with no afinity for an area or long term interest in their lives.
"Community Politics" and "Neighbourhood Councils" are the new Trade Union Movement of the new century, the political alliances built up around them just as was the case with the TU movement and the Labour Party in the late 1800's will determine the political lanscape of the future, and all the three main parties at present are in danger of not being painted in.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteTony was selected by the largest Castle ward Labour Party meeting for ages.He was selected unanimously at very short notice.You may remember that Lee Barron stood down at the last minute and we had a real task in finding a strong candidate for Castle.Tony had to be persuaded to stand by Lee,Peter Evans, Marie and myself.
The story got into the press because Lee announced at his group meeting that he was standing down and the ward had selected a 'big hitter'
We now know that Les Marriott,Lee's deputy was peeved and complained to the region.The rest is history-tragic and predictable given the animosities within the Party.
I was the ward secretary at the time and was wiling to hold up my hands but believed then as now that we gave the party the strongest candidate that could have ensured a much bigger group.
I didd not want to quit the Party,after 40 years membership-but like Tony and Peter was expelled.
pParty loyalty used to be a two way street,you gave loyalty but expected some back in return.
Good to hear from you John - I do have to say though that the more people that get involved in this debate the more questions it raises.
ReplyDeleteIf Tony was selected by the good people of Castle Ward, did the region (I presume this term means the admin body of Labour)remove him? From previous blogs including Peter Evans it reads as if Tony Clarke was the Labour candidate in Castle but decided to turn it down and stand as an independent?
It is not the Labour Partys fault if some MPs said "I don't agree with this but I have to fight my conscience and vote for my career" - thats an individual choice to be made. None of us are under the illusion that this was the first or the last time that Whips do their work in Westminster.
Talking of illusion, Tony said in his last blog '...Community Politics" and "Neighbourhood Councils" are the new Trade Union Movement of the new century, the political alliances built up around them just as was the case with the TU movement and the Labour Party in the late 1800's...'
I do want to keep our discussions on your blog mature Tony but that one did make me giggle. Neighbourhood Councils the news Labour movement? Well, I guess time will tell on that one.
I do hope that man from Duston comes back in though - his request for what are the big 'meat on the bone' issues to go along with your beliefs/ideas/views (not policies) is crying out more than ever.
How about this - Tony Clarke is sitting down in front of Jeremy Paxman, at 10.30pm next Tuesday night on Newsnight. The intro music fades ....
JP - "Good evening. With an election weeks away, pollsters tell us that turnout at the polls on May 6 could be the lowest in decades. Are people turning off from the current political system? Tonight we are joined by former Labour MP Tony Clarke, who is standing in Northampton South as an Independent. Good evening Tony.
TC - Good evening Jeremy.
JP - You believe that Community Politics and Neighbourhood Councils are the new Trade Union Movement of the new century. The political alliances built up around them just as was the case with the Trade Union movement and the Labour Party in the late 1800's will determine the political lanscape of the future. What actually does that mean for a typical family, with 2.4 children living in Duston with a large mortgage and bills to pay?
Beware the alter ego. PD has many. Is anonymous another?
ReplyDeletesorry - thats far too cryptic for me.
ReplyDeleteJP - You believe that Community Politics and Neighbourhood Councils are the new Trade Union Movement of the new century. The political alliances built up around them just as was the case with the Trade Union movement and the Labour Party in the late 1800's will determine the political lanscape of the future. What actually does that mean for a typical family, with 2.4 children living in Duston with a large mortgage and bills to pay?
ReplyDeleteTC - It means the world to them Jeremy because the typical family and for that matter the non typical family, both want to know that their streets are safe and that their local schools are delivering and that the streets are clean and that there is a strong sense of community spirit where they live and these issues are the glue which hold together many of the 1000's of resdidents associations and community groups and forums which are making huge differences to peoples lives on the ground at a time when national politicians and their parties seem to have forgotten them
JP - But the new Labour movements?
TC - well, like workers in the Labour movement of a 100+ years ago people are now from a different perspective getting themselves organised, getting elected to their local councils, making a real difference to the lives of their neighbours and they are doing it without any political party interfering with them or trying to control their ideas.
JP - But thats at Local council level Tony, surely you are not suggesting that this community revolution can go all the way to Westminster?
TC - Yes Jeremy, I am.............in fact I will go further and say that all of the three main parties are making it inevitable that this will happen by all centralising their power, and ignoring the needs of local constituency branches and applying a "we know best attitude" at a time when the public are already switching off to their rhetoric.
JP - even if that is true, what exactly will you do to make their streets safe and their roads cleaner?
ReplyDeleteTony,
ReplyDeleteThanks for getting back to me and as ever, thanks for your open and honest views. I will always remember standing with you (well actually behind you)on a doorstep at St Giles Park listening to you give both barrels to some old Tory.
We'll have to agree to disagree on some of the points you got back to me on.
I would say though that even back in '97 and the years leading upto the election there was no 'golden age' of internal democracy and activity within the local party. My memories, as fond as they are, are of three or four of us plodding round Ryeland Road with Mick Ford, Les Collins and yourself or CLP meetings on a Thursday night with half a dozen if we were lucky.
Would still welcome some more depth than truth, honesty etc from you as per my last message but I don't want to get in the way of your wider efforts Tony so won't keep blogging but will pass the word around that people can speak to you on here.
AM
John - it's Marie. Can you please stop blogging and come home. The dusting needs doing. You can talk to Tony later.
ReplyDeleteAnon 2 above, ask them in Spring Boroughs or Semilong and they will tell you what we do to make our streets safer and cleaner and it doesn't involve any political party!
ReplyDeleteAlan, thanks for the balanced post, it is most welcome, and yes I agree even in the 90's it was always about making the most of what we had, Ironicly in 1997 when I first got elected Northampton South had over 1500 members, today it about 200, the Torys and the Lib Dems are also about the same, each about 0.01% of the population of the town, or if I am being kind 0.03% of the electorate. Any way good to make contact with you again.
Imposter above, thats Dr Marie Dickie OBE to you!!!!!!!
Hello Tony - my trade union comrade Alan mentioned your blog so thought I would come and have a look. For what its worth it reads as if Anon has something personal against you but I agree that people should at least put their name against any messages.
ReplyDeleteI am with you that truth, honesty and openess has to be the way forward. I take your points on political parties but when a collection of individuals come together with the same ideas and intentions (as you want them too) then a natural progression from that is a collection that becomes a movement / political party; there then has to be some give and take to keep going forward.
The classic example of this is local authorities up and down the country that have independent councillors like yourself who guess what, get together before meetings and agree the independent line that will work for them. They accept that, as we do in the trade union and labour movement, we acheive far far more together than we ever do alone (even when that means as individuals we don't always get our own way)
Anyway - that is the deep sociological stuff that most people doing night shifts don't care about.
Tony - you would never let a Gordon Brown or a David Cameron get away with when asked on policy issues to '...ask my constituents in Kirkaldy / Oxfordshire what we do ...' and Alan talks fondly of your time on the knocker together when you were able to tell local people the real difference Labour would make.
I wish you all the luck in the world if you stand but the real acid test is what would you actually do?
J
Tony - Dave Smith here from Semilong.
ReplyDeleteJoan - hark at you! You weren't that eloquant when we all spoke about this with Alan the other night. Never heard you say 'sociological' either. Do let us know what it means!
More importantly Tony; will the Cobblers go up this year?
Dave
Joan, thanks for your comments, you speak a lot of common sense around the issue od collectivity.
ReplyDeleteMy concern at the moment is that I believe all the parties ahve forgotton its meaning when related to their local branches.
A lot of the community work on the estates is also based on collective action, the pensioner and the unemployed youth, the migrant worker and the white collar executive all coming together to clear up a piece of waste land or organise a party. (not a political one!!)
Two things that stand out for me from the last County Council election in Castle Ward last year (May 2009) first of all was the determination amongst minority groups to act collectively to vote Independent. At 8am in Semilong as the polls opened two muslim women in full hijab stood waiting with two member of the Gay community in full drag. The first two(Ladies!) were voting early to avoid the rush and to get back to the family the other two (make up slightly blemished by that time) had not been home yet from a crazy night before. Now that is a useful collective of minorities acting with one voice for one purpose.
The second was in Spring Boroughs where my leafleting team were nearly all post 60. With the lifts out of order in the high rises two female pensioners one in their late 60's the other in their 80's decided (without my knowledge at the time) that the lack of a lift wouldn't stop completing their task.
One of them slowly walked up all the flights resting for a while on each floor, when at the top she lowered a rope to the other waiting at the bottom and slowly floor by floor, balcony by balcony they hauled the leaflets up in small piles in plastic bags to be delivered.
Now thats what we used to have in the Labour Party when everybody was a part of the collective whole.
Now theres just a hole!
Also I wish Brown or cameron could at least say "This is our policy and it was honed and shaped on the ground in our communities and at our conference" rather than the truth of it being imposed on them by a Policy Forum made up of yes men and women.
Dave, after last night I feel more confident than ever that the Cobblers can go up. automatic promotion is still a possibility but tough, so the play offs seem to be th route we will need to take. I back us over any side in the division over two legs, so that will just leave Wembley.
Whilst Wembley games can always have their surprises we can win if we apply ourselves on the day.
So its looking good!
ps when I enetered parliament in May 1997 it was followed a week or two late with us winning at Wembley against Swansea!!
Tony,
ReplyDeleteIs that an omen then? If you get elected will we win at Wembley again?
If that's the case I think you've just got yourself three votes...
Like I said, you're my favourite ~ just don't tell the others!!!